[From Rockett Power.]
UPDATE: This is the kind of thing that happens when you take away a women’s right to make basic medical decisions about her own body.
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98 Comments
Where did you find it? I can’t locate it on any of the mass photo sites.
On imgur via Reddit. See http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/fpbaa/prolife_vs_prochoice/
Thats a great picture!
I also think there needs to be another pro-choice sign with:
“It’s easy being pro-life when you weren’t raped by your father at the tender age of 13 and have to be pregnant with your incestuous baby”…or something of that nature.
And yes, that has happened and happened to a girl more than once because no one was there to protect her, not even the mother. We can thank religion for this kind of torture.
Or:
“It’s easy being pro-life when you don’t happily get pregnant in a marriage and then find out that the fetus is deformed and/or you may die if you carry it to term.”
or… its easy being pro life if you are an ignorant superstitious deity worshiping mental midget right wing asshole who is only trying to control women’s bodies and doesnt give a shit about the baby AFTER its out of the woman’s body….
that would be a good one too.
This is a picture from a demonstration in Olympia, WA. A bunch of pro-life demonstrators picket the Planned Parenthood there every February and some people got sick of it, and decided to show some love and support for Planned Parenthood.
If men were the ones who got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
I am pro choice, and I think that most people should choose to keep the baby, but that is their choice. I do agree with Robyn though.
Well said Kevin, check out the man-hating comments from “jilly” who commented on the web page, seems she has a bit of a thing for fishy penises.
Well yeah.. Christian republicans get a lil ticked off when you kill children a lil too soon.
They need to grow up so they can become soldiers and die in their holy/oil wars.
You really are a shit Hairy… She is talking from pain and experience. Have a heart you little spoiled brat!
I’m pro-life and I’m not a right wing nutcase.
I care about the baby before and after they’re born. Especially since I want to adopt, and adoptions take years because it is hard to find NEWBORN children. I would adopt an older child, but I’d like to start off with a newborn, to sort of break myself in as a parent. Abortion kills what could have potentially been my son or daughter. In extreme cases, such as potential death. Fine. Abort. Otherwise, please don’t murder children other people would beg to raise.
love the fetus;rape the results;free to live, work, remarry, rape and retire; this happens to be my own experience…as well as millions of citizens of this country…coping and working and never getting justice, mercy…suffering the indignities of further sexual insults/comments/bullying/shame/suicide of victims we love…
personally, grew up with a convicted child rapist,one year in county jail…1960,rape victim; my older sis…she passed recently…
go to hell you rotten ass citizens spouting such opinions; when educated politicians knowingly and eagerly pass legislation, make public comments,as well as participate in… implementation of torture…go to hell… other survivors…alive and coping…our rapists free today…enjoying their retirement/not yet retired…reproducing and re-offending…
makes us seethe with hatred; not violence…thank goodness education and coping skills have kept us from killing you men/women/siblings involved…repelled urges to target you with cruelty…
so, let them all live in unwarranted fear from victims… live your lives as we did…in fear every day all day…
cause folks continue raping everyday in our country… and kids are still suffering in silence… should watch the news as we victims do today…read what becomes of your acts…kids sometimes grow up and lash back…violently and unexpectedly…or become politicians, doctors, police, military, etc
lucky us…
lucky society of millions…just educated enough to continue to observe others, cope, work , survive…and listen…
look in the mirror and check your mouth at the door; millions are out here, all ages, both sexes, and all quietly suffering to this day…income doesn’t matter, either…just the deeds…your uniform or status in our eyes isn’t impressive…
read,read, and read some more…kids cannot articulate what they are experiencing…age 5 for myself…your words cause untold suffering…
we are watching, and all of you should too.
thanks for allowing this comment…strayed off topic.
Any of you who are Christians and support abortion have to ask yourself, would Jesus want the abortion of any of them.
First of all the vast majority of abortion are of children NOT concieved of rape or incest. It’s like less than 1%, so what is your arguement for the other 99%.
I don’t beleive Jesus would approve of the abortion of the Child conceived rape or incent either. What did that child do to deserve to be murdered? That child is as innocent as the victim mother is.
As for the rest of the non-believers out there, who cares what you think? I know I don’t. You have turned your back on the creator, the one that gave you life.
IDK, Steve, I think Jesus would frown upon forced gestation and the treating of women like state-sanctioned brood mares.
But, judging by your username, you’re a man. Maybe when you grow a uterus, experience your first period and the discomfort that comes along with it, and finally know what it feels like to worry about getting pregnant when you don’t want to be pregnant you’ll have something interesting to say about abortion and a women’s right to do whatever she pleases with her body and all organs therein. Until then, who cares what you think? I know I don’t.
I am a Christian, and as Christian (and a human being) I would love if abortion didn’t exist. But guess what? It does. How dare you “Steve” call someone a bad Christian when you are doing nothing to effectively get rid of abortion. I guess I would consider myself Pro-Choice. But of course i’m pro-life…The thing neither side seems to do enough of is work towards weaning society off of abortion. No body gets warm fuzzies inside when they think of abortion. Maybe if both sides worked towards weaning society off of abortion we could one day be rid of it. This is mostly right-wing nutjobs and ignorant Christian’s faults. They push to get rid of it immediately…if that happened “back alley” abortions would happen so fast. Pro-Choice are on the defensive for the most part. And frankly for anyone to try and get rid of abortion quickly is stupid. For your own plan that is stupid. Work together people to gradually get rid of abortion. But don’t be intolerant while you do it.
There is no such thing as Pro-choice, because the one getting killed never had choice.
Its amazing that the largest purveyor of abortions on the planet was started by a Racist Social Darwinian who has succeeded in killing mostly minorities. Yet the Liberal Killing Fascist Left rejoices…oh wait that actually is consistent.
Incorporate the earth and assume every human to be a share holder at birth. If every child was a share-holder in an incorporated earth, abortion would be pointless.
End poverty, end abortion.
I mean, like yikes!
Ok, I guess I asked for this by doing a posting on abortion. But for people who are just joining this party, we try to have calm, reasonable discussions about big issues. So let’s be polite and respectful, please.
Stevee…stop thumping…religion (opinion-cults) has nothing to do with the truth that God exists, so do not put them together…how you follow (if ur a catholic, what do you think your pedophile leaders think about abortion, I bet they are against it, cause where are the children going to come from that need their love) is your deal not the rest of us.
On this not as in all mentions of freedom…an abortion for or against is between a woman, her doctor and God…and don’t you dare think God needs you to speak for him, speak for yourself and stop telling us you have a direct link to God, all you have is a direct link to the perverts you follow…
I cannot stand pro life/choice arguments. People need to understand there is only pro-choice; and the choice isn’t abort or not.
Your choice was made when you decided to have unprotected sex. Even if it was protected and you became pregnant. If you aren’t ready for a child, you shouldn’t be having sex. You can’t f up and “press the reset button” because it’s inconvenient or unplanned. If you want to fool around and have sex with whomever or your boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife be ready to possibly become a parent of another human being. If you aren’t ready, financially stable or mature enough, your choice is to NOT HAVE SEX. Very simple isn’t it?
Rape, on the other hand is a horrific matter of discussion; and should be on an individual basis for the victim. This isn’t a choice on having sex. This is a forced act and the woman pregnant should have an option. I personally believe if you do not want the child, or are unable to care for it, there are people in this world who cannot give life to a child and would do anything for one. Adoption, people.
Furthermore, if you become pregnant and are in poor health and the life of the woman depends on abortion, a choice should be available.
So, if you screw up and you and your partner get pregnant, you have to be willing and ready to accept that you are now a parent. Like it or not, YOU’VE MADE YOUR CHOICE BY HAVING SEX OR NOT HAVING SEX!!!
The usual divide has arisen between so-called ¨Christian right wing,Right to Lifers¨ and the so-called ¨Atheistic, socialist Free Choicers¨. However the debate is missing a few things;
1)Those who ask what Jesus would do must remember that He NEVER judged anyone on either side of any argument and treated everyone with Love and Respect. Therefore He would do the same with the Pro-choice and Pro-Lifers regardless of what they claimed. He would show patience and tolerance…something in very short supply here.
2)Both sides always forget the elephant in the room, the father and the families involved! Most men get off scott free when the s**t hits the fan…they either disappear, hide behind their friends,parents, or whomever or totally ignore the ¨bitch¨ since it isn’t their problem…right?
3)The State has screwed up most of the Health care system royally and anything else they put their slimy hands on so trusting them to do what is in the best interest of both parties (the mother,the child and the father) is like trusting Wall Street to look after your bank account!
4)The religious authorities have failed to even try and coordinate any rational approach to this issue without coming down on the ¨sin¨ side big-time. If they want to help, they should put their money where their mouth is, just like the pro-Lifers should.
5)I am convinced that if the mother were offered full and total support, during and after pregnancy, many might choose to keep the child. This support should be 5 fold:
the State can contribute financially, both families if still available can contribute emotionally and financially, the father MUST, if available, contribute financially at least,the Churches MUST aid psychologically and financially, and any pro-lifer and pro-choicers who wants to encourage the mother to choose their child before the last resort of an abortion.
6)Ultimately it should always be the mother’s choice and they should be totally free from harassement or pressure, parental, spousal, religious or otherwise. BUT they should be offered informed and financially viable choices before they make a decision. Once that decision is made, they should be supported totally and unjudgementally for the only thing they need to answer to is their conscience.
7)I know of very,very few women who enjoy the prospect of aborting their fetus while going through the pain of being pregnant. Given a viable and humanizing choice, most would probably accept the above option but if they didn’t why criminalize them?
Not all pro-lifers are whacko Christian offshoot cult members who get some kind of joy out of making women suffer and it’s incredibly ignorant to think so.
I’ll admit straight out that I’m a Catholic but that has nothing to do with my opinion on abortion. I don’t have any problems with contraception or even cloning. I also have a good friend who is an agnostic and very much a left-winger who is just as opposed to abortion as I am. I’m sick of people who think that pro-lifers are backward and medieval.
Simple fact is that abortion is killing a person. An fetus is still a human being. I don’t think killing a person is ever right, least of all an innocent person who has never done a thing wrong.
The picture seems to almost argue against abortion. It shows the pro-life stance (someone being killed) against the pro-choice stance (someone being pregnant). I know which one I would take.
Also, on the whole “men don’t understand” thing. If I had the choice between killing someone and wearing an increasingly heavy backpack on my belly for 9 months which caused me to want strange food and have unusual bowel movements and then have to pass a kidney stone at the end of it, I would still take the latter.
Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
Steve, I’m a Non-Believer and I do care that you are so righteous you think the piffle about some bullshit creator you put out there doesn’t harm the progress of the human race. Believe in the deity of your fellow man before you cowardly go seeking the truth in fairyland.
I notice that no one has brought up a very important subject here. The reason these people get pregnant to begin with. I live in the “bible belt” and the school system here teaches abstinence only sex education. How about someone taking some responsibility for teaching people(yes primarily high school and college kids, though not all) how you get pregnant and how to avoid it. It wouldn’t solve the problem, but it might help. As a woman, however, I agree that we should never outlaw abortion, because it would just be done in back alleys like it was back in the 50’s.
ah yes because being pregnant is worse than being dead. she looks so clever.
Jeez. People need to chill out.
If you’re a man, it doesn’t any sense for you to have much of a say here. No offense, but no man’s vote should count when it comes to this matter. I love men, but you guys couldn’t possibly even begin to understand all the complexities here. It’s not like women are going around trying to get knocked up so they can tell their friends about what a great experience it was to have an abortion. I mean, come on.
AND for all you religious folk out there that are “pro-life” (which, by the way, is such a manipulative and contrived title for your stance), why don’t you just shut up and let God decide what’s wrong and what’s right. I mean, what ever happened to “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”?(John 8:1 – 11)
Let women do what they will with their bodies and their lives. If you’re not religious, this is called freedom. And if you are religious & “pro-embryo-life”, isn’t this why you believe in hell or something?
And about what I said about men earlier…
“Also, on the whole “men don’t understand” thing. If I had the choice between killing someone and wearing an increasingly heavy backpack on my belly for 9 months which caused me to want strange food and have unusual bowel movements and then have to pass a kidney stone at the end of it, I would still take the latter.”
-CIAN
….case and point.
“Name” is the only logical an sensible person on this message string
why dont u ask the fetus what it wants?
here’s her facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1346673782
this is real. she uploaded the above pic to a planned parent hood facebook event.
A fetus is not a human until it’s matured enough to live outside the womb.
I am Pro-Choice, but that does not mean that I would have an abortion. According to my doctors (several of them) I would be on Lithium throughout the entire pregnancy, which means, even if I wanted the baby, I wouldn’t be able to feel any kind of emotion about it. It also means the fetus would be at risk for several heart conditions. I have a higher chance of having an autistic child, which I know I couldn’t handle. And I’m also a perfect candidate for Postpartum Psychosis (not to be confused with Postpartum Depression) and/or suicide. Then there’s the fact that I am bipolar and it is genetic and from a family where, in the past 3 generations on both sides, my loved ones have passed away from cancer or suicide. I am also lazy, selfish, and completely irresponsible to the point that the fetus would suffer before coming out of my womb. All these FACTS have crossed my mind hundreds of time whenever I’ve consider a child. In the end, I plan on adopting. Possibly an older child because they are almost always overlooked.
Doesn’t anyone remember the woman in a country in Europe (I’m sorry, but I can’t remember which one) who was suffering from cancer, but it was treatable if she aborted the fetus, but could not because abortion is illegal in her country? Or the 10 year old girl that had a kid recently with her 16 year old boyfriend, and her family was excited about it?
I will say, however, that I am NOT a supporter of Partial Birth Abortions.
Sex is for enjoyment. Yes accidents happen and birth control is available quickley over the counter with the morning after pill.
Terminating a pregnancy in the first months is safer than letting a pregnacy go to full term. So what excuse is there to keep an unwanted child. Its damaging to your health, wealth and happiness.
Pro-lifers and Pro-Choicers unite!!
——————-
First off, reading through these comments it got extremely stale fast. It’s the same arguments over and over again with no resolution. “I feel this way. I feel that way”. It’s all subjection opinion here, which is definitely valid to some degree however we’re running in circles here and nobody is addressing the real problem here.
So why are these mothers choosing to abort? Sure rape, incest and health may be a few reasons, justifiable abortions, even to Christians. But why else? “I’m not ready to have a child yet” happens to be the most prolific reason. You know what we need to do as a nation to get mothers ready for pregnancy and past this issue of to abort or not to abort? We need to start addressing our internal selves and the Government in power.
Over the past few decades we have seen the gap between the rich and the poor expand exponentially. We need the government to stop filling their pockets and start spending more money on better social programs for expectant mothers, We need to step up and fight for better education, green jobs and job security. We need better health care and alternatives to pharmaceutical drugs which aren’t the be all end all to every disease. We need to stop allowing corporations to pump pollutants and toxins into our atmosphere and the food we eat if we wish to halt most disease. We need to stop buying so much stuff believing that new clothes, cars etc will fulfil us. Let’s stop working so much, spending time away from our families and communities in the name of the progress machine. Let’s allow barter/trade systems to thrive allowing our community to come together.
When we build strong, resilient communities that support each other, pregnancy won’t seem so alienating to the mother and scary in terms of how to take care of the child emotionally and economically. When we eliminate toxins from our sphere there will be less health problems in an individuals life prior to any pregnancy or affecting pregnancy making the pregnancy less scary physically.
So in effect I am suggesting a solution for all Pro-choice and Pro lifers. Let’s unite. Seriously. let’s unite and create a critical mass of people that the Government can’t say no too when presenting these new demands. Let’s shelve this abortion argument, concentrate on the real issues at hand and no doubt in 10, 20, 50 years the catalyst to all these demands will undoubtedly be a massive drop in the number of abortions and limited to only those women whose abortion reasons, we’ve already agreed on, need it the most.
What’s so bad about abortion? OK, if you are religious and believe that that the twirling little dna-ball spawned from 3 min of mediocrity last Tues when there just wasn’t anything better on TV is a “miracle” that’s fine, that is your belief and you are entitled to it.
However, we live in democracy that upholds a constitution that says that church and state should be separate. Period.
The fact of the matter is that abortion is a very safe medical procedure, the fetus cannot feel pain (ask a doctor if you don’t believe me, not a pastor)and the American Psychological Association has concluded that there is no scientifically valid support or evidence for the so-called “post-abortion syndrome” of psychological trauma or deep depression. The most frequent response women report after having ended a problem pregnancy is relief, and the majority of women are satisfied that they made the right decision for themselves. I am a PhD student in clinical psych, and these are not opinions, they are observations that are well supported by empirical research.
Religion aside, a baby is no “miracle,” it’s the predictable result of intercourse between two fertile adults when the female has ovulated in the past 48 hours (or more).
What I’m saying is, it’s just not that big of a deal, abortion rates have been steadily declining since the 1970s as birth control and comprehensive sex ed becomes more widely available. There is no “abortion crisis” or huge increases, steady declines is the only pattern to be seen. If we can expand access to birth control (especially for teens who are underserved in this regard) and expand comprehensive sex ed we will only see further declines. The Scandinavian countries are a perfect example of such a trend.
One line I have always understood to release social pressure to me also defines social peace…here is an edited version but you should remember the beginning…
Lord give me the strength…to step back from those things that are none of my business and that I am not able to change and to understand the difference…
The ironic ignorance of cult followers is they do not listen to their own God’s words, they listen to the guy who tells them he is special and knows what God thinks with his hands down pants…yet their own God Jesus stands against them, “don’t ask me what another thinks, go ask yourself”…”don’t come to me, go to God”…man says, “come to me and I will get you to God…two totally different messages with two totally diff. responses…maybe he (Jesus) does not know what God wants???
Hope this offers some piece…just remember there is a fine line between “right”eousness and self “right”eousness…those outside the church define good hearted and well meant thumpers as the self, only do to your blinded ignorance of self…
It’s not as simple as a choice to have sex or not. The two basic drives that mammals have are food and sex. It helps our species survive. I don’t think a woman who was raped made the choice that she would be raped today. And how many times have we heard of spiritual leaders who have vowed their celibacy only to go on to molest children? I would never let a man tell me what to do. In my opinion men should have no vote or say in this discussion. Women are the ones held accountable, like it or not.
I’m pro-contraceptive. Most abortions are the product of poor judgment coupled with the power of lust. If you don’t want babies don’t have them. Abortion is not a form of contraception. For those fetus’ conceived by rape or incest etc. I think it is important that women have the choice to abort, for all others take some friggin responsibility use a contraceptive.
Lady Maharandi:
Do you understand many “older” children are begging to be raised?
I understand your “wanting” a newborn. However, don’t you see that is the exact closed mindedness that prevents any older foster children to be adopted? The same goes with animals in shelters. Do you realize that is why Bob Barker always said: spay and neuter your pets? Many feel that it is inhumane. But isn’t it more inhumane to have to put down thousands of dogs each year because people like you want “newborns” instead of the older animals? Thank goodness we don’t euthanize humans. It would be people like you that encourage a mother to have a baby so you can have your “newborn” while a 6 year old is sitting in a foster home waiting to be adopted.
Lady Maharandi:
I apologize if I was too harsh. I do think it admirable that you are adopting. And that you support the choice.
LOL@PIC.
As a guy, I’ll say this:
There’s no reason why a fetus should trump the rights and life of the woman carrying it. Whatsoever. Because men and women are equal, there is no reason why she should be made morally subservient to one of her bodily functions.
“Personhood” and “Living human being” are two entirely different concepts – the former has to do with the capacity to experience, and the latter, with biology.
We must remember that “Murder” also has a very specific legal context, and shouldn’t be so flippant to use it in a context we don’t understand. A woman exercising power over her body, and dictating the terms in which it can be used, is not “murder”; it’s a sort of self-preservation. And try as one might to distort my argument or make some sarcastic comeback, it doesn’t matter from YOUR perspective whether the two are equitable, only that it is HER body and she has completely autonomy in the way it is used. If you try to argue that she is obliged to carry it, then you’re authorizing that she does not have total control over her body, and – congratulations – you have just indirectly justified rape.
Last point: Any argument that uses god or religion as a premise must first prove god’s existence (or that their religion is absolutely correct). If we don’t agree on that premise, then it’s a faulty argument, easily refuted. That’s one of the biggest reasons for the separation of church and state, and it holds true in this argument as well.
check out http://godhatesprotesters.wordpress.com/ That’s the source of this photo.
Dear Random Guy: I salute you. Honestly, that’s one of the most intelligent things I have seen posted on this page. The rape comment was clever, Kudos.
As for the rest of you: Women should NOT be told by men that they have an obligation to have an unwanted child. Some people are just not ready for a kid, and accidents do happen. The wise thing to do is for you “Pro-Life” people to help give society contraceptives. Make them available, it will make an impact. Looking at things on a Global welfare scale: we’re already on the incline when it comes to the human population. Considering the waste and pollution that we contribute to the atmosphere (lovely creatures aren’t we?) it would be best NOT to add any more people to the mix. Really, if we want a planet for the next couple million years, let’s try to cut back, yeah? That includes YOU religious family that cant figure out how to use birth control. You should have stopped after the 13th, sure they’re good kids, but really? Do you REALLY need to make that many new ones when there are so many kids in orphanages and foster-care?
Fighting online is like the special olympics. Even if you win, you’re still fucking retarded.
its funny those arguments are always used about rape and such which is a good reason when most abortions are done by people who just dont know how to take responcibility
It would be people like you that encourage a mother to have a baby so you can have your “newborn” while a 6 year old is sitting in a foster home waiting to be adopted.
I don’t understand why a the ‘rights’ of a foetus trumps the rights of a woman to do what she wants with her own body. It just doesn’t make any sense.
Also, I am sceptical of people claiming to be ‘pro-life’. I wouldn’t be surprised if 9/10 of them were in support of the death penalty. If they are anything, then they are anti-choice.
no one has addressed the fact that a woman has the power over life and death. i think this must cause many people problems. a POWERFUL woman is a threat to many. a woman who uses this power is simply feared…especially by folks who believe in a god-a MALE god. this male god should be the only one to “mete out” life and death at his whim. if a woman is making these choices, she elevates herself into the realm of “god”, daring to make choices that speak to her own “divinity”. i would also like to know how many people picketing planned parenthood, refusing to educate their children or allow them to be educated about simple biological urges are providing love and care for a pregnant 13 year old? how many of them are raising someone else’s crack baby? it seems to be very easy for these people to blithely insist that someone they do not know or have never met grow an unwanted “tumor” inside their bodies! how would you feel if someone insisted you grow a foreign object in YOUR abdomen?! i will also mention the fact that the world is dangerously over crowded. the fact that many people who are “born” live lives of untold agony and deprivation. i think we should be much more concerned about those of us who are alive at this moment in time. women are so much more valuable than being just a “vessel”. when enough people turn to the wisdom and power of women perhaps we can save our planet and ourselves. our planet is female. if we need to revere something let it be the very earth that sustains us.
What right does anyone have to judge another. Live your life as you see fit and let others do the same. So long as the Pro-lifers continue to have their babies, they should be happy. So long as Pro-choicers gain the acceptance of making their own choices in their lives and bodies; they will be happy. Why must we sit in judgement of one another without fully being seated in their situation. Truly, none of us make all decisions that we do can honestly deem them divinely correct. Only when our time ends in this world will we know whether what we did here will be judged or compassionately understood. So, lay off each other….PLEASE.
I had a very opinionated teacher who, when questioned about abortion, simply said “The only people who have a say in that are pregnant women”, and I couldn´t agree more. So men, lay off. Women who are not currently developing embryos, ditto. Were there any pregnant women here?
The choice happens when you choose to spread your legs. Dont want a baby? Then tie your tubes.
Andrew: Have you ever tried to have a tubal ligation?
yeah, I didn’t think so.
You have NO idea how hard it is to find a doctor that will tie your tubes for you. It is next to impossible.
so to all those who have said that it’s a girl’s own fault if she gets pregnant (barring rape) because she chose to have sex…are you saying someone who never wants to have kids never gets to have sex?
don’t call “contraceptives” on me because i have met multiple children who were the product of a condom, birth control pill, AND the morning after pill, all used at once and all failed.
simply NOT getting pregnant sometimes isn’t possible. It is unfair to expect someone to never have sex ever at all in their lives just because they don’t want to have kids. And if you’re going to accept that and allow someone who never wants kids to have sex given that they use birth control, you also have to extend that allowance to those who just don’t want kids YET. so there goes your entire argument. Thanks for playing, though.
To whoever said some nonsense about wearing a backpack and then passing a kidney stone…you are hilarious. at least i hope you were joking…
Random Guy is the most sensible person on this thread.
Andrew – let me ask you this:
If you go driving and get into a car accident, are you refused medical care because you knew an accident was possible when you got into your car?
If you cook something and your house catches fire, are you refused fire department help because you knew the risks when you turned your oven on?
If you disagree with the above statements, then please answer why you think “the choice happens when you choose to spread your legs”? It doesn’t. Yes, pregnancy is one possible outcome; a possible outcome of many, I should add. But there is absolutely nothing in the act of sex that obligates the woman to carry it to term.
Sex is the means by which our species is propagated, and some would say reproduction is the function of sex; but we are human beings, and able to choose, and able to live for so many more things than the “strict function” of things. Case in point: Do you only ever eat because you’re hungry? And when so, do you ONLY ever eat the strictest things your body needs? Of course not, because there’s an enjoyment factor to be taken into account. You can choose to do something for the enjoyment factor – and nothing obligates you to a single specific course of action.
@Mary – the only thing about that statement is it also means, I can’t have an opinion on civil rights because I’m not gay or black or etc…
Jesus said he among us with out sin be the first to cast a stone which means it is not our place to judge. So if you think abortion is wrong raise your children to be careful when they have sex and teach it in your home but do not force it on others. also I hate the terms pro choice and pro life. I am proabortion to a degree, but I am not anti life. I just disagree with when it becomes a baby. I do not kill people and I never have had an abortion. I am not pro death at all. So pro-life is very lame termanology. why not pro-abortion and anti-abortion. even pro-choice sucks. Pro choice implys thats antiabortionists are anti choice. 99% of all pregancy were from consentual sex and they had a choice there. Lets change the names please.
SERIOUSLY GOD SHMOD! I find it hilarious that so many people who don’t know me from a hole in ground care so DEEPLY about what I choose to do with MY body. Christians and other organized religions claim “god” died on a cross for our sins and gave us the freedom of choice! WHERE IS THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE when it comes to what I do with MY BODY??? What you should be saying is God died on a cross gave us freedom of choice AS LONG AS I AGREE WITH IT! I’m so thankful I live in Canada where some guy NO ONE HAS SEEN IN THE LAST ZILLION YEARS (GOD) has the ability to dictate what I can and cannot do! and to Lady Maharandi – If my birth control fails and I get pregnant your telling me I should go a head and have a child so you could POSSIBLY adopt it!! NEWS FLASH LADY!! there are MILLIONS of young children out there waiting to be adopted you are selfish and ignorant to insist a woman keep an unwanted pregnancy so you can have a new born!! If you wanted to be a mother that bad the age of the child should be your last concern! ultimately MY BODY MY CHOICE and everyone else needs to mind there own goddamn business!!! PEACE OUT!
The more I read these comments the more disgusted I am with people! WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH! Are you so pathetic and sad in your own life that you need to stick your nose in someone else life and give an opinion no f@#king asked you for! I dont believe in god and heaven and all of the other ridiculous NONSENSE of organized religion BUT I have never ever once told someone they were a bad person for believing or protested outside of a church or place of worship! WHY you ask???????? BECAUSE ITS YOUR CHOICE! I DONT AGREE BUT IT DOESNT MEAN IT WRONG AND WHO THE HELL AM I TO TELL YOU HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE!!!!!! This world would be a MUCH better place if we all just stayed out of each other business!!!!
It’s funny how people who don’t even know how to spell have strong opinions about things.
It’s easy being pro-choice cause it’s too hard to remember to use the hundreds of birth control methods available out there. Go throw a bag of puppies in the river.
If men were able to bear childre, McDonald’s drive-thru would be performing terminations.
HJL: You’re right. Because birth control just NEVER fails, right?
/rolleyes
Can we all agree that abortion is almost never a desired thing? The undiscussed truth is that a vast majority of women who have abortions experience depression, and/ or a variety of other serious mental health struggles afterwards. In my personal and professional experience (I work in medicine) this is undoubtedly true. The emotional scar that abortion causes leaves a wake of mental health suffering across our culture that is pervasive and yet held in private. Think of the impact of that if there have been millions upon millions of abortions in recent decades. Most disturbing to me is how over 90% of unborn children who MAY have Down Syndrome due to a risky test are being wiped out. Our culture is out doing the Nazi’s in that department and most people don’t even know it. My youngest daughter has Downs and she is a magnificent gift from God who has transformed our lives for the better; and there are thousands of medical professionals out there who would have advised us to abort her. God have mercy on us.
A fetus is not a child. A fetus is a chunk of meat that is part of the mother. Ever wonder where the term post partum depression comes from? It means when the baby is born it is now part of the mother. Yet humans are even in a worse condition. New borns are not fully formed or functional as humans. Unlike most animals humans continue to become complete for up to two years after birth. Watch a chimp. At birth it can cling to the mother and search for the teat. A newborn chimp is far more advanced than a new born human. So how is it that the law can call a new baby a human yet a new born chimp with superior cognition, sight and abilities has no legal protection at all. This whole conservative crap about human life really rests in the thought that the fetus one day will be someone special and valuable to all. Yet in the real world a new born is far more likely to grow up to be a murderer or other wicked criminal or scourge to the public than a person of value. Worthwhile people are rare. Most simply clog up traffic and destroy natural resources.
LADY MAHARANDI: Why should a woman risk her health and body for selfish women like you who only want to adopt a newborn? Obviously you don’t care about the older children who will be in foster care their whole lives because no one wants them. Maybe you should be a foster parent for awhile and you will see what I’m talkig about.
Hey Anonymous, Spelling errors don’t make my statements any less valid?? At least have the balls to give your name when you make comments like that as well. Or could it be that you realize that pointing out a few spelling errors on a topic that is so far beyond spelling errors is petty, immature and lame?? Let’s stick to the topic at hand!
Things like religion,politics,sexual orientation even cultural and social aspects of a persons life should always be and continue to be about choice. We are always more concerned about what the other guy is doing when we should only be concerned with our own lives. Just think what the world would be like today if we all lived by that standard!
i am pro choice. but i know im RIGHT and it doesnt matter why i believe so, because most of my arguements have already been listed on this page: the bottom line is that right now in america people are trying to take away gay peoples rights and womens rights to their own bodies. i dont see how much clearer it could get. who wants their rights taken away next?!?!?!
wow random guy, i love you:
Random Guy wrote:
As a guy, I’ll say this:
There’s no reason why a fetus should trump the rights and life of the woman carrying it. Whatsoever. Because men and women are equal, there is no reason why she should be made morally subservient to one of her bodily functions.
“Personhood” and “Living human being” are two entirely different concepts – the former has to do with the capacity to experience, and the latter, with biology.
We must remember that “Murder” also has a very specific legal context, and shouldn’t be so flippant to use it in a context we don’t understand. A woman exercising power over her body, and dictating the terms in which it can be used, is not “murder”; it’s a sort of self-preservation. And try as one might to distort my argument or make some sarcastic comeback, it doesn’t matter from YOUR perspective whether the two are equitable, only that it is HER body and she has completely autonomy in the way it is used. If you try to argue that she is obliged to carry it, then you’re authorizing that she does not have total control over her body, and – congratulations – you have just indirectly justified rape.
Last point: Any argument that uses god or religion as a premise must first prove god’s existence (or that their religion is absolutely correct). If we don’t agree on that premise, then it’s a faulty argument, easily refuted. That’s one of the biggest reasons for the separation of church and state, and it holds true in this argument as well.
I’ll never know what it’s like to be you and you’ll never know what it’s like to be me.
If you want to support adoptions then that is positive; if you want to condemn people for their choices then that’s negative.
I refuse to take a side. All I can do is help those around me in any way I can and accept their choices even if I don’t agree with them.
“I refuse to take a side. All I can do is help those around me in any way I can and accept their choices even if I don’t agree with them.”
“Think,” you are my hero. Finally someone who understands. Thank you
The whole abortion issue is very complex, and there will NEVER be a clear cut answer. The world doesn’t simply exist in black and white, there is always a gray area.
The fact of the matter is, different people lead very different lives. People have different beliefs and live under different circumstances. As “Think” said, “I’ll never know what it’s like to be you and you’ll never know what it’s like to be me.” So rather than condemn and jump to conclusions about how people are “sinners” or “immoral,” realize the fact that not everyone has the same opinion as you. The best solution is to support people whether you agree with them or not…try to be positive and make the world a better place for everyone.
If you are negative towards others and their personal decisions, all you are is an a**hole that’s contributing to the problem
“Name” is the only sensible person in this whole thread. Let’s think for a little bit. I mean, I’m Catholic, yes, but I’m not a radical right winger because, well, that’s stupid. And before we get our feminist panties in a wad, I would also like to point out that I’m a woman, so I do know what we go through every month. (:
If you can’t live with the consequences, then why would you engage in the act to begin with? That’s no one’s fault but your own. The 93% of women that get abortions because it’s “inconvenient” for them to raise a kid that was a direct result of their actions are simply selfish individuals who shouldn’t have a say at all.
For the idiot that commented from the Bible “Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone,” remember that the rest of the verse goes “Now go out woman, AND SIN NO MORE.” Let’s not take it out of context (:
Furthermore, for everyone saying that abortion ISN’T murder, please explain to me why in a court of law, if someone were to kill a pregnant woman, it’s counted as a DOUBLE manslaughter, but willingly destroying the fetus that would otherwise be a human being is completely legal. It doesn’t make sense to me.
Right.
I am pro-life… BUT I believe that only in dire situations abortion should be an option. If it’s as simple as, “I don’t wanna have to deal with the responsibility of a child,” keep it. Your parents put up with you. The child, much like yourself when you were such, is an innocent. It did nothing wrong. You and whomever you were ‘with’ conceived a life. Accept it.
In cases of rape, why murder a blameless existence for something it did not subject itself to? I can understand if you don’t know you won’t take care of the child, or maybe just can’t…often times, grief is involved. But if you’re doing for selfish reasons that have nothing to do with the incident (calling it an abomination, etc.)? Deal with it.
If aborting for some odd religious reason? I am unsure if I feel sorry or an happy for the child.
If aborting because the child just won’t make in, as in there is absolutely no chance, that is understandable. Even if the mother will die, it’s understandable.
Dire situations, folks. That’s what abortions are for–not for women to have some type of pseudo-control of their bodies. How does ending a life count as control? You may be the vessel, but the body is that child’s own. What say do you have over someone else’s life? None (unless it is crucial).
Take, for example, circumcision. What say does a parent have over their child’s genitals? None. They’re on a different body. Unless they have phimosis or something, there’s no need. These children are more prone to infection, STDs/STIs as they get older, and much more.
But… back to the original topic. What say does anyone have over another’s life, regardless of their relationship… none.
*Correction: If aborting because the child just won’t make in, as in there is absolutely no chance, that is understandable. Even if the mother will die, it’s understandable.
What I mean is, “If aborting because the child just won’t make in, as in there is absolutely no chance, that is understandable. Even in situations where the mother will pass on if carrying a child or something similar, abortion is understandable.
Mimi, can you understand that it is possible to be pro-life, and yet be pro-choice? I can agree with everything you say, and yet still be pro-choice. After all, what say do any of us have over it?
Lets all just face it! Abortions send babies to god faster!
@Clever Username,
You wrote, “If you can’t live with the consequences, then why would you engage in the act to begin with?”
There are many consequences to many actions that I “couldn’t live with”. However, being a human being, and capable of reason, I am able to know and understand that just because something happens, I am not obligated to accept it. We are each able to choose our own fate. If a close family member became ill and required a kidney, and you were found to be a perfect match, you do still have the right to choose whether to or not to donate that kidney: nothing would obligate you, except your own conscience. And to not donate it would not be a failure of conscience, but your own choice to make, since you have the right to a body that is completely and totally your own.
Because causality does not equal obligation to sit idly by while the consequences happen, I disagree with your statement.
@Clever Username
Also, in reference to your question (double homicide, etc), do not take that to mean it is legally recognized as a Person. It was done as a sort of appeasement, and because the mother would have wanted that pregnancy to be carried to term, to have a child to raise. If you were to examine the laws on the books as they are, most (from what I have seen) specify that the death of the in-utero fetus would be considered murder UNLESS it’s by the mother’s choosing in a licensed clinic.
Also, take into consideration what the act of abortion is, from the mother’s perspective. It’s allowing her to regain control of her body. Does she not have the right to choose the way in which her body is used? (If you say ‘no’, then you’re indirectly justifying rape, so watch out here.) There’s nothing intrinsically special about the relationship here to be able to justify it. Sentimentally speaking, sure – but only if the woman recognizes it as such. You cannot force your “feelings” on another person, after all.
@Clever Username:
As i’ve already stated, are you saying that someone who never ever wants to have kids should never ever get to have sex ever in their lives? Or maybe there’s a person who has a medical condition that they could pass on to a child, and they don’t want to do that…does that person have to be abstinent for their entire life too?
@Mimi:
you said:
“your parents put up with you…”
yeah, great. you’re right, parents should be forced to have unwanted kids so those kids can be “put up with.” sound like a great life for the children.
“in cases of rape, why murder a blameless existence for something it did not subject itself to?”
also in cases of rape, why punish a blameless existence for the rest of her life for something she did not subject herself to? (yes, i’m referring to forcing a rape victim to carry/raise a child. i wasn’t going to specify that, but considering the intelligence level of many of the arguments in these comments i figured it’s best that i do.)
“what say do you have over someone else’s life? None.”
I beg to differ. If that someone else’s life is going to literally feed off your body and nutrients for months, and then continue to feed off your existence, income, and life for at least eighteen years after that, i’d say you have a LOT of say over that person’s life. Why do children have to listen to their parents? (i.e. go clean your room, eat your vegetables, etc) Because those children are dependent on their parents, and what the parent says goes. same thing here: what the parent says goes. Parent says no baby? no baby. hey, if i were the fetus (not that that’s possible since they AREN’T PEOPLE) I certainly wouldn’t want to be born into a family that didn’t want me.
The whole abortion issue is very complex, and there will NEVER be a clear cut answer. The world doesn’t simply exist in black and white, there is always a gray area.
Christianity is about not passing judgement on others. “Let he without sin cast the first stone” blah blah blah. It seems to me that the whole reason abortion is even an issue with the christian church is becase people are judging. Doesn’t your bible tell you not to do that? Pro-choice simply means you have a choice. Not that you choose to actually have the abortion. It seems sensible to me that Christians should be pro-choice if they really don’t want to judge people. WWJD?
i’m a woman..and honestly i think with the exception of rape and fatal preexisting medical conditions (or any other circumstance a woman is pregnant that would not be in a conventional “consensual” way…if that makes any sense) if a woman is pregnant and it was because her and her partner had unprotected sex…why make the child suffer for your mistake? Seriously man up and take responsibility for your actions. No, I’m not a super Christian person and i’m not a huge fan of the church, so i’m not one of those people who are going to push scripture or any of that crap in anybody’s face. but..really… if you don’t want to bring a child into the world then don’t have sex/unprotected sex and expect nothing to happen. It’s really not that complex of a thing to understand.
and also…for those who complain about financial issues surrounding raising a child that you don’t want…adoption?
I hate the argument that a fetus is not a child. By one month ORGANS are developing. by two months a “fetus” has FINGERS. three months…fingerprints. Correct me if i’m wrong…but aren’t fingerprints used to identify humans?
I am a woman. And i am pro-life. I am not a die hard feminist, but yes i believe that for the most part what women choose to do with their bodies are their choice. but at the same time IF it was the woman’s choice to have sex and a pregnancy was the initial product…then why should anybody have a say in ending a life? yes..it is a life.
When i was seventeen i was an an academic honors student and i made the choice to have sex. Yes, i got pregnant. I was already getting offers to colleges, but to be honest i took the responsibility that was bestowed upon me and did not terminate the child. Sadly, i miscarried, but really….why is this so difficult to do?
Wow, just wow.
So, Jill, I think many would agree with you that people should take responsibility for their actions. The question is, should the government be involved in this decision? As many have said in here, you can be anti-abortion but also pro-choice. In addition, if someone has protected sex, and that protection fails, does your argument still apply (in your opinion)?
As for Anonymous, as you point out, nature terminates pregnancies all the time: failure to implant, miscarriages, still births, and other reasons. The question is not whether it is life (after all, anything in my body is life), the question is whether it is an independent life. If so, then terminating that life is murder and should be illegal. Would you support capital punishment for women who get abortions?
Why are most of these comments focused on the religious fact of abortion? I understand and respect your point of view but, the argument of “Jesus said so” doesn’t make things right, or wrong. You can’t dictate what is “right” and what is “wrong” for anyone besides yourself. I don’t think anybody can speak for God in saying what is right and wrong. All of our opinions are bias. You can only do what is right for yourself. You can’t expect others to act the way you think is right because they might just happen to feel differently. Nobody’s opinion is right. There is no right. Sometimes there is “appropriate” and sometimes there is “acceptable,” but not right, and not wrong.
The baby is part of the mother, like growing an extra arm. Until the baby is born…. it’s not unique, it’s part of the mother.
The soul enters the body upon first breath, just like it exits on the last breath. That’s just the way it is…. even the bible says so.
Clearly, we all think differently. How grand the World would be if everyone with an opinion would stop forcing that opinion onto others.
Why does religion have to be a part of this at all. I won’t try to make you believe in something because its my religion, so why don’t you stop trying to make me believe something because it’s yours? We are all different, we are all in control of our own bodies, let’s all believe our own things. I understand the christian argument for being pro-life, but understand my argument for being pro-choice. You can understand something, not agree with it and accept it for its existence. Personally for example I am agnostic and hate organized religion and all the corruption it stands for (personal opinion), however,I would never tell someone they are wrong for believing in it. We all have different thoughts. Abortion will continue to happen weather it is legal or illegal, however, I believe that if it is illegal more people will die, unborn and mothers than when it is legalized, in a system with regulations and safe procedures, not dirty clinics and illegitimate doctors. But again, just my personal thoughts.
@Dani, I love it.
@Jill, the parts of the brain that allow a human to consciously recognize tactile contact, or pain of any kind (thalamic relays, if memory serves me correctly) do not begin to form until very late into the pregnancy – shortly before the end of the 9-month pregnancy period. Excluding third-trimester abortions, the fetus is unable to experience pain – or pleasure, really – of any kind, and does not suffer in the slightest. (On an aside about third-trimester abortions, these I don’t agree with except in cases where it was not voluntary sex, or the health of the woman is at risk; but then, I fully submit that it’s not my call to make. I’m a man and would never have to experience that, except vicariously.)
@Iron Knee – Since the overwhelming question is about the control the woman has over her body, I think anyone who believes a woman should be punished for seeking an abortion should also be punished for repelling a rape attempt, and the punishment should match the degree that she fights it. After all, you can’t believe one without believing the other. That’d be hypocrisy.
Why does this matter. ? just live youre own lives. forget everyone elses buisness
If I got pregnant today, I would abort it as soon as possible. Why? Because I cannot afford to take even one day off of work to get a sonogram.
To the people who say “put it up for adoption” I say
1.) I am not some incubator for some rich lady who doesn’t want to ruin her body, but still wants a “newborn” who is the same color as her (if you really really want a newborn, adopt internationally). If you really want to adopt, adopt an older child. To wait around for someone like me to pop one out for you is selfish.
2.) I would still have to take 2 weeks off from work before labor/delivery. I would still have to pay up front for all the pre-natal care. I cannot afford that. If i tried taking two weeks off of work so I could pop out some fetus for a rich lady, I would get fired. Why? Because there are no laws protecting pregnant women. Plenty of laws protecting fetus’s. Really none out there protecting pregnant women.
If you want me to even consider carrying a metaphorical pregnancy to term, you must promise that I will have paid maternity leave, job security through the pregnancy, affordable and accessible pre-/post-natal care, and a slew of other things. Contrary to popular belief, women who have abortions are very maternal. And they are protecting their future children by choosing to abort a current fetus.
Give me a few years, once I have a stable job, a stable income, a stable home life, I would love to have a family that included a child (probably foster parenting). And if I want to protect that future family, I need to have the option of aborting today.
Truth be told, no one cares about the fetus once it leaves the womb. Most people have commented that the fetus, once it leaves the womb is a “punishment” that the parent has to “put up with” for having the gall to have sex. So, when it was a fetus, it was a “miracle” – when it is a child it is a “punishment” ? People need to start caring about the pregnant women, the discrimination they face, and need to care about the fetus once it is outside the womb. We need SCHIP, we need WIC, we need affordable pre-post-natal care, we need affordable day care, we need paid maternity leave. Otherwise, women will have no choice but to abort.
[not that there is anything wrong with abortion. my body, my choice.]
I have several questions for anyone that thinks abortion is okay, or should even be considered anywhere in the world.
If a pregnant woman (sitting in the waiting room of a planned parent hood about to have an abortion), is killed by a walk in shooter, will he be charged with double murder if the baby dies as well? Even if the mother was doing the same thing in the next few moments? Don’t say the baby isn’t a person or its up to the mother, because the court system feels otherwise when pregnant women are killed each day.
A guy earlier pointed out that less than 1% of abortions are from rape victims, so for the rest of the LARGE group, why shouldn’t they be held responsible for their actions like the rest of the country does every single day? If I decide to get behind the wheel drunk and have a reck and kill someone will I face criminal charges? Yes because my decisions resulted in the taking of life from another individual. Many, like myself, believe that the insanity plea should be kept legal, because even if a hundred guilty walk free, its better then the taking of one innocent life. Yes having a child is a hard thing, physically and financially, but you made the choice to do the one single thing that causes pregnancy. When you put clothes in the dryer are you surprised when they come out dry an hour later? How mad would you be if you started your car, but it wouldn’t drive? Or when you set your alarm and for some reason it doesn’t go off and your late for work. We as individuals purchased and use these things daily, expecting them to work as designed. Sex is how a woman becomes pregnant, thats its reason for existing, so why are people so shocked when they become pregnant afterwards? A unwanted child by one mother could possibly change the lives of not only the child and the adoptive parent(s), but possibly millions of others. This brings me to my next question. The world has us under the microscope looking for cures of cancer, aids, paralysis, Etc.; but have you ever wondered how many Einstein’s, Newton’s, or Lincoln’s we have aborted, or as I like to say INNOCENTLY MURDERED.
Now I would like to address the Christian part of this. Sinning is something that no man nor woman can escape, we are born with it. For this reason God made possible receiving his forgiveness. The problem we encounter is the supporting of a law and law makers that allow the murder of a innocent child. This is much different then a lapse in judgement, because we elect people every year based on the beliefs they carry. The bible says murder is a mortal sin, so regardless of how you spin it, what your excuse is, its still no justifying it to God. If suicide sends you to hell, then how can taking someone else’s life not? For those that complain about the bible thumping Christian’s, how do you think we feel about your protests about your beliefs. There has been a nonstop protest for years outside the White House wanting to end the making and use of nuclear warfare, or the protestors wanting to stop a war that began when our country was attacked. I see protesting about the United States aiding other countries against harsh rulers every day, and even though I cant fathom your reasoning when you know the unimaginable number of innocent lives that are being taken daily, I sit and let you give your opinion. Bottom line is if you can protest your beliefs, I can protest mine. If you want to call yourself a Christian, then supporting abortion simply isnt an option, its one or the other. Supporting a law that allows the killing of thousands or millions of babies just to avoid 9 unwanted difficult months is no way worth burning for eternity. For all you none believers, think of this portion as you’d like, but don’t comment because I’m not here to discuss believing or not believing at this time. I will only pray that someday you will be touched by God like many of us have.
I also read earlier a comment about why catholic priests want the stop of abortion, because what “alter boys” would they have to rape. I don’t know if that was either a joke or serious, but I become immediately defensive when my faith is being profiled and so unjustly attacked. When a drop in the bucket of catholic priests do things such as this, there is no way anyone can judge the entire Catholic Church, or think any less of us. If a white man calls a black person a “nigger” does that make the entire white race racist? Should those that share the same religious beliefs of the men that attacked our country on September 11, 2001 all be called terrorist’s? If a black man is selling drugs on the corner, does this make every other a “thug”. If an atheist college student shoots up a school, does that mean all non believers are future murderers? The answer to all these questions is no, because no race, religion, gender, or organization of any kind has 100% perfect members. As I said earlier people make mistakes, we were made this way, but it is our job to not judge, but rather do our best to help prevent ourselves, those we love, and all the people around us from doing these or any hurtful acts.
My final abortion argument pertains to the abortion process itself. For those that feel abortion is simply taking care of a women’s body, or that she can do so because it is her body, then is it okay to have one once the baby is delivered? Your still connected by the umbilical cord, so theoretically it is still feeding off the mother and part of her. With your beliefs, abortions should be legal up until the cord is cut. The heart beat begins weeks after conception, which makes them no less of a human than a freshly delivered baby. What’s the cut off of age for those that are Pro-Choice? I can tell you that if you are willing to do it at 10 weeks, you should be just as able to do the same thing right before the umbilical cord is cut.
I may have gotten off the abortion path, but reading all these posts on all these topics made me realize that maybe my words could someday prevent someone from doing so by opening their eyes to what is really happening. That is what protestors are doing as they stand outside clinics, or other establishments. Yes some have personal agenda’s and do it for the wrong reasons, but most are there because they have realized that maybe they can help with the salvation of another’s soul. People protest war every day wanting to save the lives of our soldiers, even though they enlisted knowing their lives were in danger. There is no crime in trying save the lives of innocent children either, and make evident the other options that exist.
@Amazedbypeople:
To answer your first question, it has to do with intent. Any law that pertains to the hypothetical situation you posed specifically states that unless it is performed at the wishes of the mother in a licensed facility, to cause the death of a fetus is homicide.
Secondly, considering that childbirth itself is considered a form of abortion, that almost makes your last part moot. However, to consider it more seriously, the goal of abortion is to not be pregnant. Again, it is not to “kill a fetus”, it is to become un-pregnant; the death of the fetus is the indirect result. After it is viable, it is possible to become un-pregnant without resulting in the death of the fetus – by giving birth, as you say. Once out, the umbilical cord would be cut, thereby ensuring the mother is no longer pregnant, AND that the (now) newborn baby survives.
I think your question also highlights the main difference between Pro-Choicers and Anti-Abortionists today. For instance, even though I can defend my stance that the fetus is not a “Person” (nor would I, strictly speaking, call a newborn a “Person”, except out of sentimentality), my primary focus is on the Woman, the agent of consciousness who is providing the body, the nutrients, etc., and the one who is actively capable of experiencing existence. Anti-Abortionists, such as yourself, are focusing primarily on the fetus – on what it could be, etc. There’s been a lot of misinformation that is helping to feed this, too; unfortunate, and possibly irreparable by this point.
For the last, of course they have the right to protest. However, there are limits. Those who protest by violence are wrong. Anybody [and forgive me if it seems I’m implying you do, I hope you do not and I very much doubt you do, but I’ve talked to people who feel this way first-hand] – Anybody who glorifies Dr. Tiller’s murder and says his murderer was in the right, is twisted. As the saying goes, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
Simple answer is if you don’t want kids don’t have sex. You can’t really say at one point a human has a right to exist and at another it doesn’t. you can say that fetuses aren’t really people for whatever bullshit reason you can pull out of your ass but you could make the same argument for babies considering they don’t become fully conscious until about 2 years. Or maybe it is OK to kill under 18s because their brains haven’t finished developing yet. Rape and incest aside, every woman has a choice to have sex or not, use contraception or not but shouldn’t have the right to be so flippant about another persons existence.
@Doug, how do you define a person? From every source I’ve seen that has given serious thought on the matter, “Personhood” has to do with intelligence and sentience and consciousness. It’s the Sartrean “Being-For-Itself”, Kant’s “Agency”, Rand’s conception of the “Rational Animal”, etc. The correct terminology is “fetus”, a “human fetus” if you would prefer. And since no entity has the right to exist at the expense of another, the woman is completely in her rights to act as she sees fit in accordance with her bodily integrity.
You’re the person who suggested killing “under 18s”. That’s a disgusting analogy, really. The act of abortion is not centered on “Death to fetus!” or “Death to them!” or whatever; it is about “Let the woman not be pregnant against her wishes.” Let her have control over her body. That’s important. What if the issue were something that is unique to us men, and this were an issue that forced us to not be able to control how our bodies were used? I fully believe in equality here. I would not permit my body to be used in any way I didn’t want, women also have that basic and equal right.
Your theory about woman doing it for their own body is just a loophole to get around saying they are killing a baby. The bottom line is a human life is being taken because of the mistakes someone made. Should we have control of our bodies? Absolutely, but once we carry another life, they should not have the choice to kill that being. You can ramble on with your points about having rights to choose for ones own body, but in the end a abortion is the killing of a child, and there is no way around that until abortion is taken away, and trust me it will be sooner or later. I cant wait to see the statistic showing abortions happening less once women must see a video of the baby first, because once they see a life, those that actually have a heart will realize the mistake they are making.
@Amazedbypeople
If calling it a loophole is what helps you ignore the validity of the argument, then go for it. My goal isn’t to convince you, just to show how the arguments to the contrary are bad arguments.
You say it’s killing a baby. I won’t contest that, because technically it’s true; but “baby” is such an emotionally charged word that it takes the focus away from actual debate. Using it in an argument like this is a logical fallacy (appeal to emotion), since “baby” has no real scientific validity. I’m 25, and my mother still calls me her “baby”. It’s a sentimentality that will only hinder debate.
A human life is taken, you say. Well, where did that life come from? It doesn’t appear, fully self-sufficient, in the mother’s womb. No; it is because of her that it thrives, it is because of her that it continues to exist, and it is because of her that it could or could not be brought into the world. Any realm of possibility that exists for future personhood of that fetus is because of the mother. Your focus is on the fetus, which at this point is only a bundle of cells whose actual ability to experience anything is only potential. I focus on the woman, our equal, whose capacity to experience pain and pleasure and love and loss and happiness or sadness exists here and now, in the present.
If a woman were attacked by a would-be rapist, and in her self defense she kills the rapist, would you be arguing as you are now, that she had no right to kill the rapist? What if she were wearing “slutty” clothing and wandered accidentally down a dark alley? Would you say that the sum of all her actions led to the almost-rape, and that she had no business killing the rapist? I very much doubt you would. But you cannot be inconsistent.
Even I’m not so naive as to ignore that the two situations aren’t the same, but the PRINCIPLE of the matter is. The principle of the matter is that NOTHING has the right to use your body without your initial okay and CONTINUING consent. There-in lies the core of the issue. The issue isn’t over “is something going to die?” but rather “Does she have the right to a body that is wholly her own?” And unless you wish to indirectly justify rape, she does.
On a more personal note, yes, it would be absolutely fantastic if there were no abortions. It would be best, still, if there were no more abortions because the reasons that most women GET abortions were eradicated. (“I can’t afford it.” “Who’ll help me take care of it” etc) But the truth of the matter is that those reasons do exist, and woman, having minds of their own, will seek out ways to protect themselves, their bodies, and their interests. They have every right to do so.
I’m going to close comments on this post. People have been arguing about abortion as long as I can remember, and we haven’t figured out how to agree yet.
But I get the last word…
I agree with people who think abortion is wrong. But I have no sympathy for people who think it is murder and should be criminalized as such. You want to execute women who have abortions? If a pregnant woman parties too hard and her child spontaneously aborts, she should be charged with manslaughter? Give me a break.
Something can be wrong, but not illegal. Lying is wrong, but Fox News won a court case that it is their legal right. Cheating on your spouse is wrong, but we don’t stone people for that anymore.
Your morality stops when you try to impose it on everyone else. The simple truth is that the majority of people in the US do not think abortion should be treated as murder.