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18 Comments
yup,they “get it” alright. and in just over a year and a half the “it” will be a pink slip, but by then Obama’s policies will come into fruition and Republicans will claim the results were from their policies.
I agree….I believe that in 2012 those that helped elect Obama in 2008 (and then stayed home in 2010) will come out again in force to re-elect Obama. Along with that they will give the House back to the Democrats.
What will be interesting will be the response of the Tea Baggers and Repub wingnuts…will they ramp up their violent rhetoric?
The economy started its turnaround before the Republicans won back the House. I wonder how they’ll spin it to take credit for it.
They already are spinning it to take credit. See https://www.politicalirony.com/2011/01/20/republicans-invent-time-machine-arent-afraid-to-use-it/
And another thing….I know it’s been a team effort but frankly the last 20 – 25 years, the Republicans have been absolutely OBSESSED with “FREE” Trade which has been totally a job killer (in terms of good middle-class jobs). If they focus on jobs, somebody is going to question their send-the-jobs-overseas policies.
I find it ironic that as soon as Republicans regained the House, we started seeing “news” about more jobs being available, etc., etc., etc.
I wonder if there is anything that is actually NEWS any more!
Repealing ObamaCare would be a good way to create jobs. So would reducing taxes and spending. And Obama’s corruption and lies have caused untold damage. The problem here is that the federal government can’t do anything right, they sure can’t manage the economy. So, they need to back up and let the private enterprises manage the economy. The democrats don’t know how to do anything right, but they are too stupid to know that. The Republicans can’t do anything right either, but at least they know that, so they are trying to get the government out of the economy which will give the economy a boost.
Do you liberals REALLY believe the government can fix this mess? Liberals caused the mess and conservatives will fix it, unless they wimp out like they always do, in which case we are in a real load of trouble.
Guy, you are such a tool. Go be a troll somewhere else.
I only speak the facts, sir. And I like the debating with y’all because it makes me think and makes me refine my arguments. And if we don’t argue, the liberals in DC are going to just run over us with lots of restrictive, tyrannical legislation, taxes and regulations. Though I am going to try and be better about responding to questions. For instance, I responded this morning to the “Elephants in Glass Houses” cartoon from back in 1/21/11.
You are more than welcome to stay here and have a discussion, but throwing out random talking points does not a discussion make.
For example, do you have any information to back up any of your talking points in comment #7? For example:
I am not objecting to your viewpoints. I am objecting to the obnoxious and troll-like way you are presenting them. If you truly want to have a legitimate discussion, stick around. If you are just pathetically trying to get attention, then we will start ignoring you.
OK, OK, I’m doing some research on your points, I’ll get back to you in a little while. First, I have to go run an errand, but I’ll be back later tonight. It takes a hell of a lot longer and a lot more work to back up claims and find the facts on the internet than it does to just state what you know.
OK, Iron Knee, your first point, the CBO and its claim that repeal will raise the deficit. Well, this was kind of hard at first, because the CBO is bi partisan and I usually agree with them. However, former CBO Director Douglas Holtz-Eakin told CNN that the CBO “by law, the [CBO] must take the information Congress sends to them — however implausible — at face value.” Holtz-Eakin also said that HR2 “is simply a first step toward fiscal sanity that should happen as soon as possible.” I cut and pasted those from
http://usactionnews.com/2011/01/former-cbo-director-repealing-job-killing-health-care-law-%E2%80%9Cfirst-step-toward-fiscal-sanity%E2%80%9D/
The numbers in HCR are all bad, but the CBO is not allowed to interpret the numbers. So, congress may add some savings or revenues twice, while leaving out some expenditures and ignoring the fact that as current director Elmendorf says, the law is almost unsustainable over the long term and will be changed, the CBO must use all those flawed numbers.
http://blog.heritage.org/?p=49689
Plus, you have the way congress came up with these numbers. They say that HCR will increase revenue by $770B and expenditures by $540B, so that is your $230B and repealing HCR will result in a $230B increase in the deficit. But those numbers came about by using revenue starting now (or soon) and expenditures starting in 2014. So, 9 years of revenue and 6 years of expenditures. Interesting, huh? What is going to happen in 2020?
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/article/20110124/OPINION01/101240311/Charles-Krauthammer-GOP-must-point-out-bad-numbers-behind-Obamacare
Of course, all of us down here can believe what we want. And it’s hard to know who is telling the truth. Me, I believe these three websites, and I have not yet heard any reliable argument against these facts.
Step by step my friend. I’ll get to your points step by step. The sun has gone down a little, so it’s not so hot. I’m gonna go mow the lawn. Anybody else out there mowing the lawn today, or are y’all completely buried in snow.
What were the bad numbers handed to the CBO? The CBO was asked a very simple question: how will the HCR bill affect the deficit.
You don’t have to take my word for it, or the word of clearly biased news sources (a blog on the Heritage Foundation, US Action News, and a blog in the Shreveport Times), you can read the CBO report yourself at http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/119xx/doc11945/USC10-22-10.pdf
The bottom line is that while of course you can argue about how much money HCR will save, the CBO is clear that the HCR bill will save money and will reduce the deficit. The Republicans know this, because they specifically exempted their repeal HCR bill from their promise to not pass any laws that would raise the deficit.
And for me personally, I don’t actually care how much HCR reduces the deficit. No Republicans worried about how much Medicare Part D exploded the deficit. Nobody worried about how much the war in Iraq would cost, because (they said) we have to fight terrorism. But far more people die from not having health insurance than have ever died from terrorists.
If we can cover health care for millions of Americans and save tens of thousands of lives a year, all without increasing the deficit (and maybe even reducing it), then I’m all for it. The bottom line is that HCR is not a deficit reduction act, it is a much needed reform of our health insurance system that kills tens of thousands of people every year. If the Republican party is so worried about health costs raising the deficit, why don’t they start by repealing Medicare Part D, which was FAR more expensive.
This is so simple, I’m surprised that people are taken in by all the smoke and mirror arguments about HCR. But I guess that’s what happens when you have the insurance industry fighting reform tooth and nail.
Ok, that’s your first point destroyed.
And I’m surprised you “trust” US Action News. In that article you linked to from them, they list “related articles” and the first one is about Obama’s “Death Panels” — a claim that earned PolitiFact’s “Lie of the Year” award.
Damn, I disagree with just about everything you say, but I don’t know how to debate you because we apparently have two completely different philosophies when it comes to politics. But don’t think I’m not gonna try.
It would be nice to get health care for everybody, and that is the most important thing (more on that later.), but money is important also. And While the CBO is hampered by the fuzzy math and accounting gimmicks thrown at them by congress (It’s a fact, ignore it if you wish), Medicare Actuary Richard Foster is not bound by the same limitations, nor is he in any way partisan. At a House Budget Committee meeting Foster told Tom McClintock (Rep R-CA) that there are two lies in HCR; that HCR would hold down costs and that we would be able to keep our plans if we like them. Both of those statements are lies, the costs are estimated to go up $311B and some people may not be allowed to keep their current coverage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/health/policy/24health.html
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/561249/201101272010/The-False-Advertising-Of-ObamaCare.aspx
So, even though you completely ignored the numbers and comments in the USaction news and just attacked their credibility (Very liberal tactic to dance around the actual issue) with a very weak attack from PolitiFact (Which is notorious for having a liberal bias, so when they see something that they don’t like, or are threatened by, of course they are going to call that source liars) those numbers still stand up and the comments are still true
.
Yes, I can, and did read the CBO report, but I still believe it is skewed because of the fuzzy math and accounting gimmicks that congress fed them.
The Republicans know this, because they specifically exempted their repeal HCR bill from their promise to not pass any laws that would raise the deficit.
When? Where? Reference please.
And you do kinda make a point that all this talk of money is not all that important, what is important is the lives and health and security of the American people (Above, I said I was going to get back to this.) But HCR doesn’t even do that well. There is going to be rationing of services. Doctors are going to have trouble getting paid for their services. Hospitals are closing. It is a lie that people can keep their health insurance if they like it, according to Foster. I worry that people are going to die while waiting long periods of time for MRIs and CAT scans, like in other countries. When people need a particular drug, like Avastin, they may not be able to get it because it is too expensive, even if they can pay. They have a saying in England; Government health care is health care for the healthy. Because so long as you are basically healthy and can go to the doctor for free when you get the flu or break your leg then everything is cool. But when you get cancer or have a stroke or have a child born with some horrible disease, everything changes. Everyday wading through mountains of bureaucratic crap. Not getting the necessary medications because they are too expensive, or dieing while waiting for an MRI. Of course, I can’t prove that is what is going to happen here, but that is the predictions of many, though you would probably ignore them because it’s an inconvenient truth.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article522731.ece
http://www.burtonreport.com/infhealthcare/britnathealthserv.htm
http://www.nationalcenter.org/ShatteredLives.pdf (This one is literally a book, but it’s good)
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/10/14/media-ignoring-obamacares-role-in-sale-of-catholic-hospitals/
This is so simple, I’m surprised that people are taken in by all the smoke and mirror arguments about HCR. But I guess that’s what happens when you have the insurance industry fighting reform tooth and nail.
Look, we all want the same thing. We all want to see everybody have affordable access to a doctor and the medicine for whatever disease they have. I just don’t see the government ever being capable of running our health care system, and I am surprised that people think the government can do this. Haven;’t you ever been to the DMV or Passport office or any other government office. Medicare is a mess, and you want them running all our health care. I don’t want to see people die waiting for an MRI or the bureaucracy like what happens in England or France, and have no other option, but to wait for the government.
There are problems with our health care system, but I don’t think they are all that bad. With the current system people do have options. Sometimes the drug company gives them the medication for free or cheap. Sometimes there are fundraisers to raise the money. When I didn’t have insurance because I was between jobs two doctor friends of my parents helped me out, one for free when I had an ear infection and a dentist gave me a cleaning and only charged me about a third of his normal charge. Saint Jude’s never turns away a sick child because of the family’s inability to pay. Other hospitals do the same. Jackson Memorial here in Miami may be a mess (Actually, if you get shot, Jackson is top notch. Probably because so many people in Miami get shot and don’t have insurance.), but any Humpty Dumpty can go in there with no money and get put back together again. Maybe we should fix all the county run hospitals around the country so people with no health insurance can go there to get treatment. I read a case in Reader’s Digest about a little girl that needed a ridiculously difficult triple transplant and the insurance company wouldn’t pay because it cost a million dollars. But California’s Medicaid for children program stepped in. That is a case of government doing something good. And if they act as a backup for people with no other options, then that is not a problem. But when the government runs the health care system there will be MANY problems. All that rambling was just talking about different options people currently have.
Yes, the insurance companies are fighting tooth and nail, because HCR is going to put many of them out of business (Sibelius got quite an applause when she said that.) then all those people are going to be out of a job. But, I guess they can always find a job in the massively expanded bureaucracy.
Ok, that’s your first point destroyed.
Not so fast.
Guy, you make the same mistake of equating our HCR bill, which reforms the way health insurance works, with Britain’s National health care system, which nationalized doctors and hospitals. Apples and Oranges.
Second, I’ve lived in England, Canada, and New Zealand, all places where health care is treated as a right, and I would take ANY of their health care systems over ours in a heartbeat. My least favorite is the British one (where the doctors work for the government) but I would still prefer it to what we have. My most favorite is New Zealand. And I’m one of the people who is supposed to have an advantage in the US system, because I can afford it.
Third, if PolitiFact has a liberal bias, it is only because reality has a liberal bias.
Almost forgot:
I had a whole post about this, with references. See https://www.politicalirony.com/2011/01/05/republican-budget-fail-fail-fail/
Well, I see our health care system becoming like one of those countries’. I don’t know which one, because I don’t know enough about the difference in them, and I don’t care because I like our system better anyway. It has problems, but so does my girlfriend. I don’t want to transform her, I just want to make some little changes, like get her to not make so much noise.
I wouldn’t care so much if Tallahassee was trying to do this to us because I would just move elsewhere. I planning to move out of Florida, anyways. Oregon and Massachusetts have tried it, to a bad result.
“exempted their repeal HCR bill”
I didn’t read that post before. And I don’t like this, I don’t like this at all. This may be the first time I have seen a liberal argument that isn’t on the surface complete and utter BS. This is serious, and I did not know this. I am going to figure out what this is about, though. Whether something was left out or something was made up or what. There is always an answer to the liberally bias media crap. Because it’s crap. Because it’s never the truth.
tl;dr for Guy (GSavage77): I don’t know anything about this, but I have an opinion anyway. And it doesn’t matter what anyone else says, because I’m sure they are lying.
p.s. I live in Oregon, and we haven’t tried anything like what you mention. You must mean some other state.